Autumn2012 Drafting

Zara & S - complete
Vincent, Catherine, a portray
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Zara
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:53 am

Autumn2012 Drafting

Post by Zara »

Testing out possible topic structure for forum dueling... :)

Here's what I've been able to collect from Vyew via their PDF process. I'm not very impressed by their export feature. :(

Autumn 2012 Vyew PDF

(Hope you don't mind me using B&BLand for a filebox...)

Images of non-PDF data that was not included in the export:

Portrait1a.JPG


Portrait1b.JPG


~ Zara
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Last edited by Zara on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zara
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:53 am

Re: Autumn2012 Drafting

Post by Zara »

Vyew First Draft Comments:

S 3Nov2012 Ciao!...
Ciao! I've visited the environment... great tool! It's incredible that it's free. I am also a little intimidated. I suppose that if we want to start dueling, the best is that you upload or start whatever is needed to start, with your first paragraph, and I will add my second paragraph... if if works, we will go ahead, otherwise we (I, that is) will stop, talk, learn and then re-start. Thank you! S

Z 3Nov2012
Greetings! I'm so glad you made it in. We can take the learning process slowly. I haven't used all the features in Vyew, so it will be good to see what this environment can do. I will begin by writing directly in this room, page 1. The little toolbar (it is on the left of my screen) has the icons for cursor/selection icon, a pencil for freehand drawing, a text-box creator, the sticky notes you have used already, a shape-maker, and the eraser tool. I try not to use the eraser; it's too easy to delete things I didn't mean to delete. To type a paragraph, I click the "A" icon, then click on the page where I want to write. A text-box appears that formats to the words as I type. This is an easy way to add text to the page. I hope that helps to give us a starting place! ~ Z

Z 3Nov2012 Experimenting...
Experimenting... I find that a text box of this width exports nicely to PDF. Just a formatting thought, if ever we decide to preserve our words for posterity. *grins* Have fun! ~ Z

S 4Nov2012
how do I see/keep track of your corrections to my text?

Z 4Nov2012
I can think of some different options for corrections. The sticky-note option I would use looks like this: (see your first paragraph, with note at the end). The drawing-annotaion option involved editing marks, as if I were writing on a paper printout. Create the next paragraph and I'll demonstrate the second option. :) ~ Z

Z 4Nov2012
Suggestions: * "she indeed relaxed" - This is not commonly used phrasing. For simplicity, you can remove "indeed" because Catherine's embarrassed chuckle tells us why she is relaxing. Or to keep the emphasis of "indeed," you can add a small action such as "she complied and relaxed"...or "she did relax."

Z 4Nov2012
* "You really sure" - Grammar requires "Are you really sure" but, of course, characters don't always speak grammatically. It is your choice.

Z 4Nov2012
* "time with Elizabeth so that she" - This is a punctuation matter; the statement works fine as it is, but the rhythm of Catherine's speech may indicate a need for a slight pause (comma), or an additional thought being added to Catherine's words (dash)--or even a full stop, with her "original me" explanation to follow as a sentence fragment (period). How does Catherine's dialogue sound in your imagination?

S 5Nov2012
A little remark, if I may: in Italian here there would be too many names for a two-characters scene, 3 Vincent and 2 Catherine. My Italian editor mind would leave one each, something like: He glanced between Catherine and the drawing paper as he sketched new lines with a stub of charcoal, and she admired the confident movements of his hand. Vincent replied, -- I have duplicated the page, and I'm making the corrections in the second page, leaving this one as it is. If you agree, this way on the second page we have the "clean" text. What do you think?

Z 5Nov2012
The clean copy page is a brilliant idea. I concur. Also, your Italian editor mind is wise. By habit, I often write peculiar combinations of pronouns and proper nouns and must later revise them into something sensible. Please, do feel free to offer any remarks or advice at any time! It is good to be interacting with someone who can so quickly point out weaknesses in my writing, and then think of a better way to convey what I meant to say. Thanks! ~ Z

Z 5Nov2012
Suggestions... Here I suggest alternative words in some places, using drawn annotations. The description "attorney self" can work without a hyphen between the two words, but it is often helpful to the reader to connect unique phrases visually. That is a choice of style, and yours to make. And in the final sentence, "she added" is perfectly fine at the end of the line, however if you place it at the beginning, you will allow the sentence (and the paragraph) to end with Catherine's words instead of a dialogue tag. Again, it is your choice to make about your style. I am still learning about how you like to write. ~ Z

Z 5Nov2012
"...peek and poke at him/the artist." Here I suggest replacing "him" with something a little more specific because in this sentence, we read: "she" (referring to Catherine) and "the drawing," followed by "her attorney self" (a new reference to Catherine) then "him." By a quirk of grammar, "him" could actually be referring to "the drawing" in this sentence. Using "the artist" or a similar phrase would eliminate potential confusion while adding a nice characterization detail to the image of Catherine teasing Vincent.

S 6Nov2012
I killed the confusion with a full stop after "peek", if it's okay. But now I have to ask - I knew that "him" is not for "things", like a drawing, which need "it". I know that some things can be "personified", like a city, but I'm not skilled enough to understand when it's okay to do it, and especially if it's male or female.

Z 6Nov2012
Regarding "peek": The full stop helps, although now it is a little unclear what her attorney-self is peeking at. Or is she trying to "pry" or "ask more questions" or "press the issue" or "give voice to her curiosity" in order to get more information from Vincent about Elizabeth's project? Please tell me if I misunderstand what you wish to communicate, and also if I get too detailed in analysis; I ask many questions about my own sentences in the same way, trying to find the best phrasing. I never mean to harshly criticize or to offend.

Z 6Nov2012
Ah, personification. You know the phrase, "You've opened up a can of worms"? That's the sphere of English pronoun idiom for you. There are many strange conventions, most based upon superstitions or traditions that are lost in history now. Ships, countries/homelands, and sometimes cities are given female designations. Some people refer to their motor vehicles as "she," probably using the tradition attached to ships and boats. Beyond that, personifying a place or an object is generally a matter of metaphor. Common metaphors of this nature bestow personalities upon mountains, storms, machines, toys, trees...anything that holds meaning for a character, and these can be assigned male or female identities as the writer chooses. When I write, I find that "it" is safest, but I keep personification in my bag of tricks for special occasions. Example from NIBAC: page 65, Winslow thinks, "Or maybe it's just the Maze pulling her old tricks." The Maze is an important place to the Tunnelfolk, a dangerous and capricious place. I let Winslow think of that location as a "she" to emphasize the cultural suspicion that there might be more to the Maze than unstable stone. Perhaps it is haunted, or animated in a way that is hostile to human life! This reveals a spiritual aspect of Winslow's character (as well as his mother's character) in only a few words. Does this help to explain?

Z 6Nov2012
Suggestions: And for this paragraph, I combine the highlighting option with the drawn annotations for edits. I suggest the marked changes in punctuation. The textbox which gives an example of a different order for the highlighted section is ONLY a suggestion because I know it changes the order of action in the paragraph. Another way to keep the sentence closer to the way you wrote it looks like this: "And grateful to Elizabeth"--he nodded his agreement, resuming his work--"for allowing me, as well, to understand what you notice when you behold me." Action breaks in the middle of a spoken line are tough to punctuate, although they are perfectly legitimate to write, if used sparingly. There is much debate about how to do it correctly. Different editors will have different methods. Also, different effects can be achieved depending on where you place the dashes. Save the ellipses (...) for a method to indicate the pace of speech, a trailing off, or an unspoken implication.

Z 7Nov2012
This is just to say your revisions to this paragraph are wonderful! It reads very clearly now. I can "hear" Catherine's voice speaking through the text. Did you wish to place commas around the words, "as well"? It makes sense to do so in situations where "me" is being included by inference into a group of other people, as is happening in Catherine's statement. Beyond this detail: brava! ~Z

S 7Nov2012
Question: I thought that a paragraph could not be cut this way, that it should include the line of dialogue it introduces. And it does introduce at least some words, as it mentions the quality of V's speech, no way to divert with an intruder or C interrupting him. If it is not so, I have to recalculate my parameters... S

Z 7Nov2012
Sorry for creating confusion. You are correct. Either the next line of the parapraph should indeed be Vincent's dialogue, as I've introduced it, or a new paragraph immediately following should open with Vincent's dialogue, especially if he has a lot to say. I think I was inviting a switch in character perspective between the two of us as authors...but I was also writing at around midnight my time, so my brain may not have been thinking very clearly. *chuckles at self* Shall I add the missing dialogue to what is already written, or would you like to try your hand at Vincent's words? ~Z

S 8Nov2012
Oh, no need to apologize, actually I am grateful, dear Zara, as I need to learn. And I hope this little thing of ours does not steal too much time to your other projects! Actually, I'd prefer you to write V's words in your paragraph, at least the first ones. I went back and re-read what we have written so far, and I sort of like the distinct different pace of the two writers which is also of the two characters: Vincent's tranquil, serene, sure pace, and Catherine's fragmented and bubbling. Of course I'm more than ready to switch perspective, if the paragraphs development will call for it. *S

Z 8Nov2012
Excellent. Vincent dialogue, coming right up! Fear not. I'm enjoying our writing very much. It helped me yesterday. I got stuck on a scene in my novel, and creating a new paragraph here helped me to think of what to write next in the other project. So I'll continue to perform Vincent's side of things in our piece for a while. Onward! ~Z

Z 9Nov2012
Yet another editing experiment Is there an annotation style that is most helpful to you? Anything to keep the ideas understandable... ~Z

S 10Nov2012
I'd like to see the difference between the corrections necessary to make the text correct in English, if not polished, and those which are suggested to make the text "better". That is, those I -must- accept and those I -can- accept, but if I don't, the writing is correct anyway. Different colors? *s

Z 10Nov2012
I can do that. From now on, I will use green for English corrections and purple for optional nuance suggestions. ~Z

S 11Nov2012
Perfect! *S

Z 10Nov2012
Beautiful. My only suggestion is to find a verb other than "invading," because "invade" has a connotation of intrusion or violence. It is grammatically correct as you have written it, however. ~Z

S 11Nov2012
okay, thank you. "Invadere", in Italian, can also refer to a peaceful invasion.*S

Z 11Nov2012
This is good to know. I think many English words wander strangely from their roots, so that even modern-day word-cousins bear little resemblance to one another across the borders of language. ~Z

S 12Nov2012
And fortunately, many English words don't, so that I can recognize them easily enough, those which have the Latin roots, that is. And of course, only if I see them written -- the pronounciations are a a neverending source of wonder. *S

Z 12Nov2012
With your permission, I want to pause at this paragraph because many interactions are happeninng now. At this point, for correcting purposes, it is good for me to know how you want to use your writing style to portray different characters. I like to write from inside a character, finding a voice that I feel is unique to that person. Of course, not all authors write this way, and some people prefer consistency in language throughout a story. So far, we've heard Catherine, Vincent, and Mary speaking, and they each have a different mood or feeling, different mannerisms. Jamie enters and she brings a strong, young, cheerful presence to the scene. When I think of Jamie, I imagine a young woman who speaks with intelligence, but who also speaks casually, using many verbal contractions. Would you like me to make several suggestions for style, to show what I would do with Jamie's dialogue? Or would you like me to preserve her speech as you've written it, and focus on the overall grammar of the paragraph? As it stands, I think Jamie comes across as more formal than she did in the B&B show. ~Z

S 13Nov2012
Yes, I’d very much like to have a character sound true and consistent to the episodes dialogue style. That is definitely something I’m unable to do, I don’t recognize the different styles, too busy endeavouring to understand the words. So, again, please correct the English and show me, in green, how the paragraph should be from a correct grammar point of view, then feel free to adjust it, in red, to fit it to the proper character’s voice. As to contractions, yes, I have this tendency to avoid them. As my English is essentially written, I don’t feel the need to use them. In case, I write, then go back and PUT the contractions. So, I know that grammar is correct also without contractions, but please do mark the no-contractions that would sound weird in a normal speech. As to Jamie, I absolutely agree and actually (gulp!) *tried* to make her speech a little brighter. Presently, I revised my paragraph putting all the contractions I could think of. A vous, now. I am enjoying this immensely, thank you so much!

Z 13Nov2012
You are welcome, my friend, and thank *you* for storytelling with me. I haven't had the pleasure of writing with a partner since I was seventeen, in creative writing club at my school. You definitely made Jamie's speech bright and energetic; I just felt the tone could use some refinement. Creating a character's voice is challenge enough when writing in one's native language. I bow before your skill (and your courage!) as you attempt it in a secondary language! You've been writing Catherine perfectly. She and Jamie come from different social environments and this shows in their speech. I think writing contractions is a matter of both personal style and characterization on par with deciding how much slang, or how many metaphors, a character uses when he or she speaks. I am happy to offer a little English perspective in this regard. ~Z

Z 13Nov2012
These are the rewrites I made. After you put in the contractions, Jamie's words instantly became more casual and Jamie-like. I've marked in green where grammar changes occur in both versions. Red text indicates how I hear Jamie delivering the phrases. I used "sneak peek" as a slang term which refers to the act of enjoying a preview of a work (often a movie or novel) before the scheduled publication date. The section highlighted in purple has a lot of action happening in the same sentence. I demonstrated a couple ways to simplify the text. ~Z

S 14Nov2012
Sniff... and your paragraph? *S -- in withdrawal

Z 14Nov2012
Ah, forgive me, friend. The tyranny of the trivial caught up with me yesterday. Unpausing the storymaking now...

S 16Nov2012
Sorry, this time it's me who was late. * S

Z 16Nov2012
No worries. Life happens. :) ~Z

Z 16Nov2012
Action between dialogue makes a scene so lively, yet so challenging to punctuate. I am noticing in your style the intriguing tendency to keep the flow of spoken words and character actions together in the same sentence. This is perfectly fine, it just requires extra attention regarding how the descriptive phrases are written in between the moments of speech. I think I've made this paragraph look like a Kandinsky painting, ha ha. If any corrections or suggestions are not clear, please tell me so, and I'll be happy to explain more about what I was thinking. I love this exploration of V & C's bond! ~Z

Z 20Nov2012
It is perfect. I have no edits to suggest. :) ~Z

Z 22Nov2012
...Topsider self: The grammar is adequate here, but I think the phrase is confusing in English. I might try for something like: almost sorry that her stubborn Topsider rationality was emerging again. When you use the word "peeking," can you maybe tell me what kind of activity the verb is describing in your imagination? Or even give me a comparable Italian word to refer to? The term is usually used for a quick instance of revealing oneself (or one's eyes) from behind an object, or glancing at something swiftly before looking away again. So far, Catherine seems to be peeking frequently, and in several different ways. Another verb might make these several images easier for the reader to understand.

S 22Nov2012
1) With "into", the "to" before "Vincent" stays or goes? 2) My usual meager choice of words. Emerging is perfect for what I meant to say. What I think when I write "peek" is "raise head", besides the meaning you described, which I know. In Italian I could say "spuntare", "saltare fuori". Something dormant that wakes up and shows itself.

Z 22Nov2012
1) The "to" stays. As it stands, the sentence is then correct, although the rhythm is perhaps unusual, the phrasing a little vague. Formal grammarians would question it, and ordinary English-speakers would simply read it and move on. Alternatives to the phrase "lead me to" could include: "...you want to introduce, Vincent..." or "...you want us to create, Vincent..." or "...you want to share with me, Vincent..." These convey similar sentiments but emphasize different possibilities. A change of that nature would also make the language more specific. Just some thoughts. 2) Thanks for clarifying. Emerging does seem to fit this context. ~Z

Z 22Nov2012
Surer: For obscure reasons of typical English illogic, the -er suffix is not used with the word "sure." The phrase "more sure" is used instead.

S 22Nov2012
oh! okay.

Z 22Nov2012
American English idiom requires either "blank paper" (the word "sheet" deleted), or "blank sheet of paper." I really don't know why this is so. My language is so weird sometimes. Everything else looks great. ~Z

Z 23Nov2012
Lay / Lie is the *bane* of writers trying to write English correctly. Here in our story, this verb should read either "was lying" or "now lay" to be correct. This is one of those words that depends completely upon surrounding context for its form. In general (except for exceptions, ha ha) "lay / laying" is used to describe the act of placing an object or oneself upon a surface. [I lay down on my bed. / I am laying my hairbrush on my table.] "Lie / lying" (which is spelled and sounds the same as the word meaning "to speak a falsehood") is the act of remaining upon a surface after being placed there. [I lie on my bed, staring at the ceiling. / I am lying on my bed.] To confuse things even more, "lay / laid" can also indicate the past tense of "lie" (but never "lied," which is only used for the past tense of telling a falsehood). This wordy insanity creates a matrix of exceptions to English usage rules that frustrates even the most devoted students of grammar. You are in good company. ~Z

Z 26Nov2012
Almost is a word I edit ruthlessly in my writing...because I use it too much out of habit. What I've discovered is that one "almost" in a paragraph can portray nuance in emotion, but used twice, "almost" starts to lose its descriptive power. Perhaps you could choose one of them to delete? I would change "almost giddy with joy" to simply "giddy with joy," because that is such a strong, brilliant state of being for Catherine. But you must write what feels true to your style. ~Z

Z 26Nov2012
I couldn't resist allowing those three words to stand as a delicious mystery. I suspect, "I love you," is in order, but I also delight in a reader's open-ended speculation. ~Z

Z 26Nov2012
A natural stop occurs here. A complete story-moment has occurred. This might be a lovely high note where we can end our present little scene...or we can can keep going with it, if you wish. I leave the choice of crafting exit lines or else an opening for continuation to you. ~Z

Z 27Nov2012
A print copy of our little duel is installed after the Page 2 Clean Copy. Vyew's PDF exporter is currently dysfunctional (tech support says they are trying to debug code, and that takes a long time). So I made a .DOC file of the Page 2 text and ran it through my spelling-checker. It caught a few typos I missed. That's the only kind of change from our Clean Copy. I'm old-fashioned about editing; I like to mark printed pages with colored pencils. Anyway, if we get in the mood to polish our lovely bit of writing, there's now (hopefully!) a document readily available to download. ~Z

Z 27Nov2012
P.S. I added a final line of the story to the Clean Copy and .DOC. :)

ZEdits 29Jan2013
If we change "Winterfest" to "Valentine's Day," we could post this as a February gift to would-be readers...or we could make it any holiday, really. Just a thought about sharing the tale. I *really* like the way this piece is turning out. ~Z

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